FYI Auk

The trees in the second image are from us, Bonsai-Dubai.com ......all are potted with Seramis (100%)

The first images from 'the other shop' are potted in Lava grit with water-absorbing gel, this mix (personally speaking) does not suit this climate as it has no water retention and it is very difficult for a novice to know when to water, the other trees, the big one (Tamarind) and the Ficus Ginseng are not in Akadama but in our Seramis, Seramis looks similar but is fired clay and does nor breakdown as Akadama will.

It's worth checking our site for the Seramis info.......it is referred to as the 'magic grit' by our customers...please see link: www.bonsai-dubai.com/219379329

bonsai-dubai wrote: The Elm(s) in discussion is actually a double planting with rocks i.e. 2 Zelkova Serrata (as stated on 'shipping list')

The trees look like Ulmus Parviolia to me, but to be honest, the photo is not detailed enough so I can be wrong.

First: I cannot see the whole picture, that is correct. My opinion is based on what I can see.
If you feel I am wrong, please post a better photo where we can see both trees properly.

I can see it is a double planting. The right tree is the one of which we can see the most.
This tree is a typical, mass produced, S-shaped bonsai. The branch placement is bad, as is the branch development.
The tree has no taper. The apex is messy and not in proportion. Nebari are not great, there's no root-flare. Placement of the tree is terrible.

The tree is placed in a landscape with a rock so it looks more interesting, but the tree itself is not interesting at all.
The tree a mallsai, I have no doubt about that. These are mass produced and have no artistic value. As bonsai, as you write on your page, is: "an ancient art form", this tree cannot be considered a true bonsai.

Let's compare. The tree we are discussing on the left, on the right a Zelkova found on Alibaba, mass-product, minimum order quantity 1000, supply ability according to the vendor: 50.000 per day (!!), price: 1,50 - 3,00 usd per piece.




There are rocks in the pot, but this is not a root-over-rock style. The rocks have no function, apart from being decorative. I do not really understand why you would want to ship these by airfreight.

I do know about airfreight costs - the company I work for does airfreight. Even including airfreight the price seems quite high. I'm not really criticizing your prices, the cost of the tree seems to be just a small part of the total investment though, so I wonder if for a few dollars more you couldn't get something better.

the plantings are well-styled and balanced.

I disagree. When I think of a well-styled and balanced group planting I think of something like this (note these trees individually aren't really amazing, but the group is wonderful and gives the impression of a real forest, contrary to the two zelkova's with rocks in between (not a fair comparison, but I couldn't find something similar):

The image of the Chinese Pepper Tree is actually the back view, leaning away from from the viewer, the nebari is excellent and does not require 'dremeling'

While bonsai usually do have a side that is better than the other side, it should be good from all sides. The nebari at the back are certainly not excellent.

it has a beautiful flow and branch structure is faultless

From what I can see on the photo, the branch structure is ok, but not superb, the flow is reasonable, but not great either and the base isn't great at all.

Auk wrote: From what I can see on the photo, the branch structure is ok, but not superb, the flow is reasonable, but not great either and the base isn't great at all.

BTW: that is no criticism. Also in our region you wouldn't get a price winner for 600 usd.

Well, Auk (no information about you on your profile),..... but you are certainly an enthusiastic 'critique', ......the words of Walter Pall, I would prefer to absorb.

Anyway, I do not get involved in '' whatever they are....by chance I noticed this one. On a small finishing note, I have had the Japanese Ministry for Overseas Trade communicating with me for a year, reason being............Why I do not buy my bonsai from Japan? I then had a personal visit from the Tokyo people in March of this year.

Bonsai is one thing to one person and something different to another, Japan is desperate to develop it's overseas market.......mainly due to lack of interest from the 'youth' of the country......strict rules on what is ''right'' what is ''wrong'' with a tree or the ''this'' ''that'' could be better.........if one finds a tree pleasing or with potential then buy it and put your own personal expression into the tree. We all, when starting the bonsai 'journey' were desperate to carry-out wiring, branch bending, jinning etc. etc.......this is how we learned the art, as Mr. Naka said.......we all kill trees!

I looked over various parts of the forum and to be honest.....there are a few notable and valid pointers for newbies. To me and many of my colleagues worldwide, bonsai comes from the eyes to the heart...then to the hands....this can only be learnt by actions and mistakes........how many art critiques are painters....but have carte-blanche when it comes to criticism of an art-piece. Possibly like yourself?? When I started this journey, there was no internet, no emails.....just books, so it was 'hands-on' learning. We do what our heart and vision tell us about a tree....there should be no rules governing this....anyway, enough of 'words', I have 400 plus trees to sort...again to quote Mr Naka....'Even monkeys fall from trees'.

I'll withdraw/unsubscribe from the forum as I feel very little energy and drive...or even resolves are achieved from such things.

bonsai-dubai wrote: Well, Auk (no information about you on your profile),..... but you are certainly an enthusiastic 'critique', ......the words of Walter Pall, I would prefer to absorb.

If you are an artist I think you should be prepared to handle critique.
I love the work of Walter Pall by the way and I find his ideas very interesting.

When I post photos of my trees - which I don't do often as I find many of them hardly interesting - I expect and do get critique myself. I'm happy when people give me their honest opinion. It helps me to have a second look and try and find improvement.

On a small finishing note, I have had the Japanese Ministry for Overseas Trade communicating with me for a year, reason being............Why I do not buy my bonsai from Japan? I then had a personal visit from the Tokyo people in March of this year. Japan is desperate to develop it's overseas market

Not sure what you are trying to say by telling about Japanese people trying to expand their business ?
I mean... if they're desperate... what does that say about you?

Bonsai is one thing to one person and something different to another

strict rules on what is ''right'' what is ''wrong'' with a tree or the ''this'' ''that'' could be better...

These rules are strict, but no one says you are obliged to follow them. It's useful to know them - and to break them.

if one finds a tree pleasing or with potential then buy it and put your own personal expression into the tree. We all, when starting the bonsai 'journey' were desperate to carry-out wiring, branch bending, jinning etc. etc.......this is how we learned the art, as Mr. Naka said.......we all kill trees!

We do. However, I don't see how this is relevant to what we were discussing.

how many art critiques are painters....

Meaning that bonsai critiques must be bonsai growers?
I do not have be able to cook a meal to be able to determine if I like a 5-star chef's food.
I do know how to cook though - and how to grow bonsai.

We do what our heart and vision tell us about a tree

Lots of words to defend a mallsai that you purchased. I would have been more impressed if you had posted some photos of the masterpieces you created yourself.

.........with your 'hardly interesting' bonsai collection, maybe spend more time on your trees than worthless criticism on others.....you actually just depress would-be potential enthusiasts / hobbyists with your 'downing' of everything.....must have a pretty dead-end / depressing job.....out of curiosity ( due to the low-level percentage of 'thanks') I randomly checked some of your feedback/comments....this is the first one I opened! Pretty much says it all about you.....I can imagine your collection ...............Signing out .....forever.

Auk - i didn't say dobbies was a Bonsai Nursery :huh: - i was asking for some advice since dobbies is the only place within 30 miles that sells anything to do with bonsai.
And if you had read my previous comment before criticizing me, you would have seen i already mentioned York Bonsai. But Thanks :S"

Moderator will probably block this:

Have you actually ever bought bonsai from China or anywhere 'in bulk'?.....do you understand the 'kill rate' involved in container shipping of trees or the recovery period before they can be sold, yes, Alibaba , everything looks sooooo cheap.......try doing business there and getting what you actually want....have you been to Shanghai or Xiamen to buy bonsai? Understand all sides of bonsai before launching your over-zealous and pompous opinions.

bonsai-dubai wrote: Moderator

Understand all sides of bonsai before launching your over-zealous and pompous opinions.

I think we should all have an opinion, no matter how "harsh" because that harsh opinion may very well be true. If we all get what we want to hear, construction for the better will be haulted. He is Dutch, so i guess it is his in his nature, so the best thing to do is to take it without insult . Although, business is business, quantity, not quality (just my generic opinion about many bonsai retailers). Don't blame them though as money is the aim.

bonsai-dubai wrote: .........with your 'hardly interesting' bonsai collection, maybe spend more time on your trees than worthless criticism on others...

It's all relative. A well known dutch bonsai teacher has told me that my juniper will soon be ready for the Noelanders Trophy, so I think I may be doing something right. But again, it's all relative and I'm as critical about my own trees as about anyone else's. Nothing puts things more in perspective than visiting a bonsai exhibition and seeing the real masterpieces. Your comment about my worthless criticism by the way is very subjective and relative too.

And, by the way, I'm enjoying my trees but I'm not a bonsai trader and am not selling. I don't have to prove anything.

must have a pretty dead-end / depressing job.....out of curiosity ( due to the low-level percentage of 'thanks') I randomly checked some of your feedback/comments....this is the first one I opened! Pretty much says it all about you.....I can imagine your collection ...............

That are ad hominem attacks to which I will not respond.

Signing out .....forever.

I doubt it.

Moderator will probably block this:

Why would he ?

do you understand the 'kill rate' involved in container shipping of trees or the recovery period before they can be sold

Have you actually read my posts about kill rates? Are you aware how low the survival rate of mallsai is, even after the recovery period you mention? Have you checked the most recent posts and seen what kind of plants they concern and what it is that shops dare to sell as bonsai? Juniper cuttings, christmas azaleas, mallsai with decorated stones and fake, dead moss and all the other plants that are sold as bonsai, but have really nothing to do with the art? Have you noticed how many of these trees are dead or dying? I think I'm helping people more by giving them an honest opinion, rather than lying that their plant, that was sold 'quickly, before it dies', is good starter material.

This, I must emphasize, is no critique on you, but on the general practice of selling bad material for too high prices.

.out of curiosity ( due to the low-level percentage of 'thanks')

Are you trying to prove a point by the number of 'thank you's'? Seems you wanted so much that I got bad 'rates' that you assumed, but did not really check. I did. Out of 100 posts, the number of 'thank you's' :

Leatherback : 20
Bob: 15
Alain: 15
Me: 20

bonsai-dubai wrote: out of curiosity ( due to the low-level percentage of 'thanks') I randomly checked some of your feedback/comments....this is the first one I opened! Pretty much says it all about you.....

You really didn´t double check your claim... Actually Auk is one of the users of this forum with the highest percentage of "Thank You´s" received. As a token of my claim, here I allow myself to post the rates of some of us that are regular commenters in this forum:

Given the total amount of posts divided by the total number of "Thank You´s" we obtain the "Thank you ratio", that is:

(TAP/TNTY) = TYR

Leatherback: 1301/265 = 4.91 (one "Thank You" every 4.91 posts)
m5eaygeoff : 704/145 = 4.86
bob : 1061/162 = 6.55
Alain : 328/ 49 = 6.69
Auk : 737/152 = 4.85

So, as you can see your argument was weak and unfounded... Please, don´t get over excited about this, just support your claims rationally so we can all assess them properly... or not.

Best regards,

Alain