I was looking at a photo of this tree my friend took in the woods. I immediately thought, someone needs to cut that branch. There are no cross over branches in bonsai. Came to my senses and realized it was a woods tree.

This post does have a point, well really a question. If these crossover branches happen naturally in nature (naturally in nature...good phrase), why are they usually not cared for in bonsai? Just curious.

(Under the category heading above, the developers of this site really need to add a 'nonsense' column just for me. I think I will be using it a lot )

Because bonsai emulates an idealist image of a tree, and in this such imperfections are unwanted.

In the end, if it looks like a mature tree, these elements can add character.

Learn the rules like a pro, so you know when and how to break them.

In the end it is about the emotion transferred, not the guidelines for succesfull bonsai styling.

I am finding the more I study the more things in the bonsai world make sense. I am understanding the simplier techniques better, however, I think the styling is going to take lots and lots of studying trees. When I watch a demonstration I try to guess how they are going to develop the tree they are working on. A few times I have been right but most of the time they surprise me and I find I have another topic to study. ( I am keeping a list now of study points)
Some of the work on nebari has me baffled. I see a tree with nebari I think is cool. The demonstrator does his thing and the nebari ends up looking totally different. Sometimes I can definitely see it as better, sometimes it's just different. Developing that eye I'm sure takes years, decades.....

Ruth wrote: Developing that eye I'm sure takes years, decades.....

A lifetime, we're on the right track,... i think. ... i hope.

Ruth wrote: I was looking at a photo of this tree my friend took in the woods. I immediately thought, someone needs to cut that branch. There are no cross over branches in bonsai. Came to my senses and realized it was a woods tree.

This post does have a point, well really a question. If these crossover branches happen naturally in nature (naturally in nature...good phrase), why are they usually not cared for in bonsai? Just curious.

(Under the category heading above, the developers of this site really need to add a 'nonsense' column just for me. I think I will be using it a lot )

No. This is not nonsense at all. I do that all the time. When walking the dog in a park nearby, I look at the trees. I said it before, but again, even while you have never seen me, you'll probably recognize me by the way I walk and stare at trees (or hedge rows, or plants in nurseries). I do say things like 'that one should have better nebari', 'two branches from the same point... not too great'. And of course 'that tree could use more tapering' (actually, trees in nature are not that tapered at all. Tapering in bonsai is done to simulate what you get when you look up a tree - it's the perspective from below).

So, that's totally normal. You're training your eyes - and you notice that trees in nature really don't follow the 'rules'.
There are no rules, only guidelines, and when you understand them, you can break them.

This is the best definition of bonsai I've come across in the Masters' Book of Bonsai compiled by Directors of The Japan Bonsai Association written in 1967, "Bonsai is a tree or plant cultured in a container and is therefore small in size, but yet in its entirety expresses the beauty and volume of a tree grown in a natural environment. The literal meaning of bonsai is "planted in a tray." Goes on to say, "the beauty of the entire tree and its harmony with the container in which it is planted is the matter of esthetic concern." Also, "Bonsai, in other words, is an attempt to artificially perfect natural tree forms in miniature." when you're looking at a 300 ft. tall Douglas Fir from 1000 ft. away you can't really see where branches cross but the trunk is perfectly visible or acknowledged through optical illusion and is not a luxury in a miniature form for a natural look up close. Happy hunting.

Sleuth wrote: This is the best definition of bonsai I've come across in the Masters' Book of Bonsai compiled by Directors of The Japan Bonsai Association written in 1967, "Bonsai is a tree or plant cultured in a container and is therefore small in size, but yet in its entirety expresses the beauty and volume of a tree grown in a natural environment. The literal meaning of bonsai is "planted in a tray." Goes on to say, "the beauty of the entire tree and its harmony with the container in which it is planted is the matter of esthetic concern." Also, "Bonsai, in other words, is an attempt to artificially perfect natural tree forms in miniature." when you're looking at a 300 ft. tall Douglas Fir from 1000 ft. away you can't really see where branches cross but the trunk is perfectly visible or acknowledged through optical illusion and is not a luxury in a miniature form for a natural look up close. Happy hunting.

Could you please stop digging up months old threads, and stop spewing your personal mission to make every plant in a container a bonsai?

"Spewing " is a bit harsh. Maybe you forgot what it was like to create your first bonsai and the excitement of playing god and insecurity from lack of knowledge. Positive reinforcement and knowledge will harbor in a new generation of enthusiasts expanding the art, styles and techniques of an ever changing and evolving art. Let me be absolutely clear, THERE IS NO LIMITATION ON CONTAINER, and the thought of man perfecting nature is down right ignorant. Who are you sir to say any different? Something isn't beautiful because it lasts or is miniaturized like a goddamn pomsky.

Reported by me as well

Sleuth wrote: Maybe you forgot what it was like to create your first bonsai and the excitement of playing god and insecurity from lack of knowledge.

Nope. However, I do not think I have any trees worthy of the name bonsai yet. There is a little more to bonsai than just chucking a sapling in a pot..

I do know I did not jump in starting to give everyone overly confident advice on what is or is not bonsai, arguing from the first moment I showed my face on a forum. Oh, and yes. I still have the very first tree I started with. It is in my garden, growing a trunk.