Allow me to jump in, hijack the thread, compliment many, insult many, and commit other atrocities.

"Bonsai" has a denotative meaning - a tree in a pot. Most of us think there are some connotative meanings, related to age of tree, type of pot, species, etc. Some think only Japanese species can be bonsai. Some think the pot can only be unfired dark brown ceramic. Many disagree with these opinions.

I saw once a 150 year old woody appearing oregano plant looking just like a tree. Was that a bonsai? I thought so. Can a saguaro cactus be a bonsai? Probably not.

There is a sort of mainstream thought about bonsai, and cacti and succulent don't fit in. Somebody can call them bonsai, but most of can just smile to ourselves and say, "Out of mainstream", and continue on. I think some creative ignoring of out of mainstream thought is rarely out of order. Maybe a comment to that affect would be enough from time to time.

One more note: Leatherback is growing gingko from seeds. Auk has mentioned similar seedlings from time to time. I have no idea how somebody can call that doing easy trees.

Ivan Mann wrote: Allow me to jump in, hijack the thread, compliment many, insult many, and commit other atrocities.

"Bonsai" has a denotative meaning - a tree in a pot.

Then let me be my annoying self and disagree. It doesn't mean tree in a pot. For tree in pot, japanese has another word: hachi-no-ki.

Bonsai is a tree in a shallow tray. That's still a literal translation that doesn't cover the meaning of the word. Like yamadori, that cannot literally be translated to '*plants from the mountains'. Bonsai is different from hachi-no-ki and penjing as it has its own aesthatics and styles.

From Wikipedia:
"the term should be reserved for plants that are grown in shallow containers following the precise tenets of bonsai pruning and training, resulting in an artful miniature replica of a full-grown tree in nature."

My bad. I misquoted the definition on an illustrious web site, which calls bonsai a tree in a container - I should not have said pot.

That being said, I would note that the illustrious website mentioned is www.bonsaiempire.com , under the menu strip What is Bonsai.

But, whichever word is used, pot, container, or shallow tray, the point remains. We have a very, very broad definition that includes every single thing that could be a bonsai, and we have a feeling that there really is a more narrow meaning, but it is hard to put that into words without either writing a book or eliminating a lot of things which we would like to think of as bonsai. Just this week somebody mentioned that wisteria don't really train like a tree, but we grow them because of the flowers. That is actually the difference between connotative and denotative definitions. Tree in a container does not convey the same feeling for what a bonsai is - a denotative definition. (I am letting years of study of linguistics show itself here)

But, the real point was to let him call his succulents bonsai if he wants to. Most of us have pretty close to the same idea of bonsai; let those out in left field think what they want, and let them stay there. As to the sneer comment - he said far more about himself with that comment than he realized. Personally, I am amazed at the patience with which Auk, Leatherback, and Clicio answer the same question over and over. Their knowledge and patience convinced me about soil, and they do it in a language they are not native in.

Ivan Mann wrote: We have a very, very broad definition that includes every single thing that could be a bonsai, and we have a feeling that there really is a more narrow meaning, but it is hard to put that into words without either writing a book or eliminating a lot of things which we would like to think of as bonsai.

Yeah, which is why I once took the time to write it out: www.growingbonsai.net/what-is-a-bonsai/

Ivan Mann wrote: Just this week somebody mentioned that wisteria don't really train like a tree, but we grow them because of the flowers.

Suppose it was me. I did not go as far as stating that in Japan they typically do not put Azalea in bonsai shows as thy do not normally fit in the denimination bonsai

Ivan Mann wrote: That is actually the difference between connotative and denotative definitions. Tree in a container does not convey the same feeling for what a bonsai is - a denotative definition. (I am letting years of study of linguistics show itself here)

Hehe, you have a better way to put it. I did however try it in my earlier webpage: As every person who has ever learned a second language knows: Translating the meaning of a term can mean more than just translating the word. Often there is a deeper meaning, which is not conveyed in the literal word-to-word translation.

Ivan Mann wrote: But, the real point was to let him call his succulents bonsai if he wants to.

On the fence about this. Although everyone has a right to an opinion, it helps to have a shared understanding of the subject. So poiting out what the core of the subject is, is a means t being understood

Ivan Mann wrote: I am amazed at the patience with which Auk, Leatherback, and Clicio answer the same question over and over. Their knowledge and patience convinced me about soil, and they do it in a language they are not native in.

You know, it is the pay that makes it all worth it.. In return to answering questions, we do not have to pay anything to use this forum

leatherback wrote: I did not go as far as stating that in Japan they typically do not put Azalea in bonsai shows as thy do not normally fit in the denimination bonsai

We were in Tokyo, rode the train around to go to the zoo, walked into Uino Park, and found an azalea show. I told my wife and son I would meet them in the zoo. Oh, no, they said; hours later we made it into the zoo. Unfortunately all the cards were Japanese, and I couldn't read anything, but they were flowering and they were old. And they were gorgeous.

So Hansen, how is your Sambuca bonsai going? Any updates?

What's the problem? You are all right. Anything CAN be made into bonsai and the Elder IS NOT a "suitable" candidate for bonsai. Is everyone happy now?