Isn't there a difference between this beginner and someone with 25 years of experience?

Of course there is, as far as my opinion on the health of the Juniper, and whether I'd start cutting, wiring and styling it yet. Which I would, and which he asked.

Should we stimulate people to buy these overpriced cuttings?

No, he obviously bought it from a dodgy "bonsai" dealer, but now he owns it I think we should give him some encouragement in dealing with it...because we're not going to stop beginners from buying Consai (I love it!!) by telling them after the fact. Discouraging them to even start to work a tree. Missing out on learning by doing..

As far as

"el cheepo"

plants goes..there really is no such thing in bonsai. It's all about the image you want to create from a certain plant. If I harvest from the woods a Scots Pine..I don't pay a thing, but I do it because I WANT to make it a certain type of bonsai, for myself. The difference lies in what I want to achieve on a specific tree in this case or others. I would not buy such a tree from a dealer because he or someone else would have put their mark on it. That is why I would probably not buy a "ready made" bonsai (although I have done in the past and it has always been a disappointment) in this case. It is harder to change a bonsai once someone else has decided what it "should" be, as it is to start from the very beginning.

Loving the way that you approach this art, Yewgarden.

I know that I will learn by my mistakes and that of others. I have learnt a fair bit from the local bonsai club, but it will be a while before my sticks in pots will gain a title.

At the end of the day I am having a lot of fun enjoying a cleansing ale and trying to keep these sticks alive and growing.

Cheers

Robbie

Yewgarden wrote:

Isn't there a difference between this beginner and someone with 25 years of experience?

Of course there is, as far as my opinion on the health of the Juniper, and whether I'd start cutting, wiring and styling it yet. Which I would, and which he asked.

That's where we disagree. Wiring and cutting and styling such a young tree will kill it (and I should say: I THINK it will kill it).

Should we stimulate people to buy these overpriced cuttings?

No, he obviously bought it from a dodgy "bonsai" dealer, but now he owns it I think we should give him some encouragement in dealing with it...because we're not going to stop beginners from buying Consai

Agreed.

That is why I would probably not buy a "ready made" bonsai (although I have done in the past and it has always been a disappointment) in this case.

And you're right there too. I'd love to have a real masterpiece, but I'd far more like to create one (though I'm probably not going to manage that in this lifetime).

If there is anything about bonsai, that I could guarantee and agree with...is that opinions will differ and it is good that they do. The Japanese masters of bonsai follow a certain school (mostly pines) that I find rather stiff creations and too often repeated one on one in the western world.... My opinion.

If we prefer to put the tree before the bonsai or rather have the bonsai before the tree, depends upon our own personal preferences....and in both cases we will essentially expierience the limitations of nature upon our quest to achieve this goal.

A bonsai is a tree that is sustained in a pot, with all the needs of it's original blueprint species. It is the essential balance between the two, that makes it such a challenge for bonsai growers and artists....we can bend the rules to a certain extent, but if we go too far...it looks overworked and artificial....no bonsai deserves such a fate....my opinion.

So as far a western bonsai goes...there are no rules not worth breaking, nor styles not worth remaking...for your very own bonsai creation..whatever that may be.

'

Yewgarden wrote:

If there is anything about bonsai, that I could guarantee and agree with...is that opinions will differ and it is good that they do. The Japanese masters of bonsai follow a certain school (mostly pines) that I find rather stiff creations and too often repeated one on one in the western world.... My opinion.

I'm not sure if I agree. There may be 'copies', but I feel european bonsaiists have developed their own style - a more naturalistic one. There certainly are differences between Japanese and European style bonsai.

"For centuries the Japanese simply imitated Chinese Bonsai and it wasn't until the 20th Century that a distinct Japanese style emerged.

In the last 40 years, with an increase in Bonsai popularity, Bonsai shaping techniques have become culturally specific and many countries are now thought to have their own styles. There are European styles, American styles, Australian styles etc. The list goes on….."

Source:
www.bonsai-made-easy.com/bonsaishaping.html

Note that many bonsaiists choose native material - which also influences the styling of the trees.
An example is the Pierneef style, www.growingbonsai.net/pierneef-style/ - that's just one example of a tree styled like a local tree.

Interesting to mention too is Walter Pall:
Naturalistic style: walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.nl/2010/09/n...ic-bonsai-style.html
Fairy tale style: walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.nl/2014/02/t...le-bonsai-style.html

Auk wrote:

Yewgarden wrote:

If there is anything about bonsai, that I could guarantee and agree with...is that opinions will differ and it is good that they do. The Japanese masters of bonsai follow a certain school (mostly pines) that I find rather stiff creations and too often repeated one on one in the western world.... My opinion.

I'm not sure if I agree. There may be 'copies', but I feel european bonsaiists have developed their own style - a more naturalistic one. There certainly are differences between Japanese and European style bonsai.

"For centuries the Japanese simply imitated Chinese Bonsai and it wasn't until the 20th Century that a distinct Japanese style emerged.

In the last 40 years, with an increase in Bonsai popularity, Bonsai shaping techniques have become culturally specific and many countries are now thought to have their own styles. There are European styles, American styles, Australian styles etc. The list goes on….."

Source:
www.bonsai-made-easy.com/bonsaishaping.html

Note that many bonsaiists choose native material - which also influences the styling of the trees.
An example is the Pierneef style, www.growingbonsai.net/pierneef-style/ - that's just one example of a tree styled like a local tree.

Interesting to mention too is Walter Pall:
Naturalistic style: walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.nl/2010/09/n...ic-bonsai-style.html
Fairy tale style: walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.nl/2014/02/t...le-bonsai-style.html

This field of conversation in my mind is a quite big debate. My opinion is that bonsai artists want some naturalistic, and artistic, so i think the artistic bit is the fairy tale style. This is mainly down to ones view of things, so we will naturally differ.

bob wrote:

My opinion is that bonsai artists want some naturalistic, and artistic, so i think the artistic bit is the fairy tale style.

The naturalistic style is still an artistic style - it's not an exact copy of a real tree, but an impression of one.
The Fairy tale style uses real trees as an example (you can see them on the page), so I think you could see this as a variant of the naturalistic style.

The trees on the page do look ancient.
I guess you could look at it as being a variant of naturalistic.

Another opinion: I do think that our view of art and nature differs, but that bonsai can bring the two closer .