rtmann wrote: And some people will never be a master pianist because they just do not have an innate sense of music but they play anyway because they love it. Not everyone's goal in bonsai is a show piece...they just want something to show their friends and family and be proud of. Why discourage them?

I get your point, but wouldn't it be great, and get a marvelous feeling, if you perform for an audience who will give you an applause, take pictures or even record it? Wouldn't it be the same thing when you see people praising your tree and taking pictures of it? I wouldn't practice music if I didn't have the goal to become a better player, same is for the advice of Auk. You can see his/her advice as rude (or as a discouragement), but in the end you will get a better tree (or know that the tree hasn't got that much of potential, because of this and this reason).

These are portulacaria afra from James J Smith Bonsai Gallery at Heathcote Gardens in Ft. Pierce, Florida

Teye01 wrote: I get your point, but wouldn't it be great, and get a marvelous feeling, if you perform for an audience who will give you an applause, take pictures or even record it? Wouldn't it be the same thing when you see people praising your tree and taking pictures of it?

I think you might have missed rtmann's point. imho.
Sometimes the only applause that matters, is the applause from the people that you love.
The only people that truly matter.

geekfreedom wrote: I think you might have missed rtmann's point. imho.
Sometimes the only applause that matters, is the applause from the people that you love.
The only people that truly matter.

Good point. If you're talking about babies. If a 3 year old makes a drawing, naturally you applaud it. If the same kid still makes the same drawing when they are 21... it's less likely you will still be clapping (and no, I'm not going to discuss that to be an artist, you need to be able to find the kid with yourself so if you can draw like a three-year-old, you're really an artist).

Of course, if you cannot really draw, or want t learn to draw, you can still enjoy drawing. Just don't expect anyone to like your drawings, including your family.

I can mull through all the attitudes on this forum, you have to develop a thick skin, I don't know why it's necessary, but it seems to be that way. I understand having to answer the same questions over and over and over can get tiring. I'm a mom of three kids who are now grown and now caring for my 90 yr old mother with dementia. You don't know the same questions over and over again till you live with that. Patience people, please.
Those of us who are new to bonsai, have fallen in love with it, and want to see if we can create these beautiful, living pieces of art, we just need some encouragement and our questions answered. I didn't mean to start this firestorm with the simple question I posted. I sorta knew the answer but was also looking for any more tidbits that would help me grow these babies into something nice one day.
I play piano, cello, violin and bassoon. My teachers all started me out where I was on learning ability. That's what it is like for us beginners, this is were we are now. Someday hopefully we will have the wisdom and knowledge of people who have been in bonsai for decades, but for now, this is where we are.
When I started my music lessons I never planned on playing Carnegie Hall. I did it because I loved it. I want to grow bonsai for me, to create something beautiful for my eyes. I so appreciate seeing all the great award winning trees, but I don't plan on that being in my future.
Loving something will be enough for me and I'm sure many other newcomers out there.
Please be patient with us and be kind.

I got that geekFreedom, but my family will already think it is a good bonsai when I show them my raw material (like cutting raw material :lol: ). But that wasn`t my point though. My point is that you should always get better (and yes my family can still love the ugliest tree in my collection if they like it) but does that mean you should always be at the stage since you began your bonsai journey? If you can get better by the advice of Auk, why wouldn`t you take that? You could still keep that tree, care for it and get praised by your family but the next time you buy material, you think of tip Auk gave and you won`t buy the same tree species or buy trees that haven`t got potential (or whatever) and so you learned something new (and got better).

Teye01 wrote: I got that geekFreedom, but my family will already think it is a good bonsai when I show them my raw material (like cutting raw material :lol: ). But that wasn`t my point though. My point is that you should always get better (and yes my family can still love the ugliest tree in my collection if they like it) but does that mean you should always be at the stage since you began your bonsai journey? If you can get better by the advice of Auk, why wouldn`t you take that? You could still keep that tree, care for it and get praised by your family but the next time you buy material, you think of tip Auk gave and you won`t buy the same tree species or buy trees that haven`t got potential (or whatever) and so you learned something new (and got better).

100% agreed.
Progress is why we are here.

Auk wrote: Good point. If you're talking about babies. If a 3 year old makes a drawing, naturally you applaud it. If the same kid still makes the same drawing when they are 21... it's less likely you will still be clapping (and no, I'm not going to discuss that to be an artist, you need to be able to find the kid with yourself so if you can draw like a three-year-old, you're really an artist).

If the 21 year old is still drawing like a 3 year old then something seriously wrong.
If you do not understand something, you can learn about it. You learn... it gets easier.
Learning about something new is made easier with teachers that want to teach. (Or does this need to be explained as well?)

Auk wrote: Of course, if you cannot really draw, or want t learn to draw, you can still enjoy drawing. Just don't expect anyone to like your drawings, including your family.

Bonsaiempire.com is about learning.
Or is this a website for experts only? Or just for flaming newbies? And still trying really hard to justify it.
How do you know whether you're good at something if you did not try it?

Auk wrote: ...Just don't expect anyone to like your drawings, including your family.

I love my family's drawings.
Not because its amazing.
But because I know the artist.
Love them to death... and they expect me to.

Ruth wrote: I can mull through all the attitudes on this forum, you have to develop a thick skin, I don't know why it's necessary, but it seems to be that way. I understand having to answer the same questions over and over and over can get tiring. I'm a mom of three kids who are now grown and now caring for my 90 yr old mother with dementia. You don't know the same questions over and over again till you live with that. Patience people, please.

Namaste Ruth. I salute you for taking care of your Mother. My best wishes to you.
My Mom is a cancer survivor and although she does not live with me, I am ready to assume that responsibility. My Mom turns 60 in 2 weeks. So the celebrations have begun already!

Ruth wrote: Loving something will be enough for me and I'm sure many other newcomers out there.
Please be patient with us and be kind.

You got the point of Carmen_P's post.

Thanks @geekfreedom ... I could not respond to your pm because I guess my account has to be 30 days old in order to send messages. I see that you are from SA! I grew up in JHB but have since relocated to Los Angeles