Clicio wrote:

This seems to be the main problem; a lousy 3 minutes video on youtube about "bonzai", full of errors, by an unknown but enthusiastic "expert" is all most people need to be on board.

Great! I know I need a camera for this. So I bought a polaroid camera. Can you let me know how to make those videos? Ideally I want them to go infectuous (Is that what you call it when everyone wants to see them?) I think it would be great to make them. And I have really good ideas because I grow tomatoes.

Ivan wrote:

I don't know about the rest of the world but here in the US kids don't learn the basic skills related to research and finding things out that were part of education years ago. The educational system spoon feeds and the kids never figure out how to think just a little.

Very good point and no, I think it is not much different in the Netherlands.

This is not a problem Bonsai Empire will solve, but it may explain the problems and frustrations we are dealing with. Maybe the best thing is ignore them and let them go away. Is that overly elitist? The educator in me wants to educate but I think it is fair to expect a certain level of basic skills.

True, BE will not solve this unless we get separate sections. It is not my habit to go through each topic separately, I just read all the recent ones. Would be nice if there was a section for the real bonsai enthusiasts - not accessible for the new ones until they have proven to be really interested in the matter. Seeing seedlings there wouldn't bother me so much - as long as the person posting a question about them is not keeping his pine indoors.

Ignoring them, yeah, I thought about that - but everyone would have to ignore them. That's not going to happen - and if the regulars on this forum ignore the posts, what WILL happen is that people, who have been been studying and growing bonsai for at least... oh, some 3 weeks... will start answering these questions...

Clicio wrote:

What they want is a magical formula to make fast money and be famous on YouTube.

Unfortunately, this sounds all too familiar to me. Wish I could elaborate... but I'm depressed now.

the problem is people hate the truth. when you tell someone that they dont have a bonsai but only a seedling or small tree in training they get upset because they were told they were buying one or its labeled as a bonsai.
i totally consider myself a beginner, i been doing this for 3 yrs now but im on this site everyday and i read every single recent post. reading every post has taught me so much about my trees and even just the art in general. if people can just search their problem all this would change but of course they dont want to put in the work and just want the quick answer. how do you expect to grow a bonsai long term like that, its obvious those people are not very interested with the hobby if they dont want to put in the work. only come here because they were gifted a mallsai and feel bad killing or what ever it is. i think a private section would be smart but as said then those first timers might not ever get there questions answered but might also push them to actually search the forum. ive had most of my questions answered by searching without even posting, why cant they all do that.

Auk wrote:

Ivan wrote:

I don't know about the rest of the world but here in the US kids don't learn the basic skills related to research and finding things out that were part of education years ago. The educational system spoon feeds and the kids never figure out how to think just a little.

Very good point and no, I think it is not much different in the Netherlands.

Being a memeber of education management at the research university in the Netherlands I cna say that at east at a part of the high schools in the Netherands (pre-academic schools) problem solving, information research and weighing options are still core in education. Many of our students have a solid base there.

Yes. Exactly. If I point the camera this way, line the person up exactly one third of the frame away from the edge I have a good photograph.

Most things worth doing - bonsai, music, photography, etc., involve understanding. Some people come by the understanding quickly, some slowly, and some not at all. For the few who don't get it immediately, there is work involved. Too many today don't realize it takes time. I used to dislike the old guys who complained about the good old days (which usually weren't) and now I wonder if I am just another crotchety old guy.

Ivan wrote:

I used to dislike the old guys who complained about the good old days (which usually weren't) and now I wonder if I am just another crotchety old guy.

Ah yes...

When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint. *1)

The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. *2)

*1) Hesiod, 8th century BC
*2) Peter the Hermit, 1274\

So, I guess we both are just grumpy old men.

Another grumpy old man has to join this pointless conversation that solves absolutelly nothing.
Just to say that I expect some manners from people joining this forum too.
When new member posts his or her first question without greeting and with a load of exclamation marks, I do not feel like writing my opinions too much.
I feel more like ... ok-get back behind the door and try to enter again.
And when presented with a correct info he gets mad instead of asking more questions or doing some research - the thread is lost for me.
I am around here for over 3 years now and I can confirm that people reffered to at this thread as "elitists" gave tons of great info to a lot of new members asking the same questions without using search button. I wonder why they bother, and even why they bother getting into arguments with ignorant strangers with no manners. Maybe to try to teach them those manners along with bonsai stuff as a bonus.
From me here is a big THANK YOU to those so called "elitists" that waste their precious time to pass on their experiences, even to people who don´t really care.

Mimo wrote:

When new member posts his or her first question without greeting and with a load of exclamation marks

Or not posting the full story - asking for identification of a pest and the remedy, without telling you they already identified it and purchased that remedy 30 days ago, making the reply that was posted pointless and a waste of time of the member that replied.

Auk wrote:

Clicio wrote:

What they want is a magical formula to make fast money and be famous on YouTube.

Unfortunately, this sounds all too familiar to me. Wish I could elaborate... but I'm depressed now.

I've lived in Germany for 18 years, and my German is almost like a second native language... I did a presentation at my university in the states for the German and Music departments on my time here. At the end there was time for questions. One of the German students asked how long it took, before my language skills were so good that I didn't have problems in most situations... I said: 5 years... this was after having 6 years in Middle school/high school and 4 years in College.... his jaw nearly hit the floor... when asked how I would best reccommend learning German, I said: read as much as you can... listen to as much as you can... you could hear the eyes rolling. I then commented: there is no easy way... before we start speaking out native languages, it takes years of listening... and then years of speaking before we can read, and then more years before we become proficient enough to hold conversations about complex things... learing any skill to the level of mastery is the same... Bonsai, I think, is even less forgiving... you can't bring the tree back to life, if you've made a major mistake. I'm not sure if I fit into your definition of old... I'm 41.. but I definitly am crotchety...