While I did not write I would not reply to your question, I will write that now. I think we have discussed often enough what people can say and what they cannot say on this forum, and while you're continuing to bring that up, I'm not going to respond to that.

Also, I will not respond to your questions about your tree. I do have an opinion about it, but this is a bonsai forum, not a "miniaturized trees that I create following my own rules, without wanting to understand bonsai guidelines, that are still beautiful according to my own rules" forum.

My response to your questions would be pointless, as they would more or less try to follow bonsai guidelines, not your guidelines.

Auk: i respect your choice.

But really. I dont understand the controversy here. There are several discussions in this thread that really would have the same answer no matter the goal.

1: how would you do if the tree was yours?
2: all in here agree that the trees trunk needs to be thicker. How would you approach this goal?
3: there has been a picture of what I think the tree will target. How would you approach such goal?
4: will the mugo backbud from where the needles are removed or not?

Instead of targeting answers to the questions involved. And critique to the tree, some of this thread are targeting critique about my goal and what I find to be beauty in a tree.

Can we agree that People wiew of what is beautiful differs and go back to the original questions? I have got a couple of really good answers about the technique and craft, but I really would appreciate more.

I have not one single time intendent to Hurt anyones feelings. And I am so sorry if I did. I am a strong person mentally so I dont really Take offence in written text as I know it is not easy to comunicate by text. But I am sure there are a lot of posts in here that would scare away beginners from the hobby and from Be. And that could potentially be a problem.

Br
Magnus

I would say it is a problem when someone comes to a forum and starts telling people off for stating that on a forum on bonsai, we would like to talk about bonsai and not every single cutting in a pot.

What is even a bigger problem is the same person getting offended when people are not too happy about said person stating he is not interested in any of the things that make a bonsai a bonsai. Really, you live in your own twisted world. Which is fine. But do not pretend we are the ones in a reversed world.

I am out giving you advice if this is your attitude. You are on a bonsai forum you ask for advise on growing bonsai. If you cobsistently reject the advice.. Oscar is not paying me enough to keep brining in the knowledge I accumulated working on training bonsai for over 7000 hours.

Furthermore.. In the analogy of koi vss goldfish.

Both can be seen as pretty.
Yet if you go to a koi forum asking for advice on how to keep fish happy, they will tell you about temperature, they will talk about filter systems, antibiotics. Then the discussion will move to patterns that one would like to have and which are less desirable. And whether Japanese imported koi are better than European grown.

All you wanted to know how often to replace the water in your fishbowl on the kitchen table.

YES, both discussions deal with fish. And YES in both situations you want them to be healthy and pretty. But No, it is not the same thing, will never be. And you cannot complain in the Koi forum that you are not getting helpfull answers on how to grow your goldfish on the kitchen table because they are not the same thing.

Just because you have a plant in a pot, the discussion is not the same. I do not NOT want to keep discussion the next spider mite infection on some random ficus in the house. If we are talking design of a tree, we are talking Bonsai. Not.. I want to trim my topiary. This forum is about bonsai. And if you feel that

Tropfrog wrote:

I am not targeting bonsai

Then I see no reason for being at a bonsai forum besides trying to get people annoyed. Being a beginner not knowing what you are doing is one thing. But just explicitly stating you do not want to know how to develop material into bonsai, and rejecting any suggestion that might hint at any step in that direction, furthermore, still wanting people to help you out..Sorry. But yes. that is offensive. It is not about people having different views on what is pretty. This is not a forum about pretty plants in pots (Which I would then straight away want to have Adenium section, and flowering Aloes and Passion Flower cultivation. And maybe a geranium section.)

Listen LB. Most of theese things I have allready tried to explain, but since I failed I will try to make it one more time. Excuse me for the point form, it may look ruff, but it might get clearer for everyone.

1:I dont tell people off.
2: I am trying to have a discussion, not argument. That is a big difference.
3: I dont get offended. That was clearly stated in my last post. However, I can see some other people might get offended by some feedback. That is by far not the same thing.
4: I am very interested in Bonsai techniques and care. However, I know for sure that the comunity would not consider my plant or even my goal as bonsai. So, I try to respect that.
5: Attitude cannot be written. There are a whole thread about trying to interpretate poster as want to make good, not bad. I am trying my hardest not to be intepretated as bad attitude. Clearly I dont succeed and must do better.
6: I have not rejected one single advise. I am very happy about all feedback. My feedback has been purelly to describe how and why I did things and my intention with them. People would have done different and that is fine. I am sure I would have done different 10 years from now.
7: I have the biggest respect of your knowledge and experience and everybody elses. (7000 hours, i didnt know that, Wow!)
8: I am sorry this thread has extended to topics far from the intention and that we cannot get back on topic. If anyone dont want to post, there is really now pressure. I am happy for every feedback given despite the percieved bad attitude.

BR
Magnus

leatherback wrote:

Furthermore.. In the analogy of koi vss goldfish.

Both can be seen as pretty.
Yet if you go to a koi forum asking for advice on how to keep fish happy, they will tell you about temperature, they will talk about filter systems, antibiotics. Then the discussion will move to patterns that one would like to have and which are less desirable. And whether Japanese imported koi are better than European grown.

All you wanted to know how often to replace the water in your fishbowl on the kitchen table.

YES, both discussions deal with fish. And YES in both situations you want them to be healthy and pretty. But No, it is not the same thing, will never be. And you cannot complain in the Koi forum that you are not getting helpfull answers on how to grow your goldfish on the kitchen table because they are not the same thing.

Just because you have a plant in a pot, the discussion is not the same. I do not NOT want to keep discussion the next spider mite infection on some random ficus in the house. If we are talking design of a tree, we are talking Bonsai. Not.. I want to trim my topiary. This forum is about bonsai. And if you feel that

Tropfrog wrote:

I am not targeting bonsai

Then I see no reason for being at a bonsai forum besides trying to get people annoyed. Being a beginner not knowing what you are doing is one thing. But just explicitly stating you do not want to know how to develop material into bonsai, and rejecting any suggestion that might hint at any step in that direction, furthermore, still wanting people to help you out..Sorry. But yes. that is offensive. It is not about people having different views on what is pretty. This is not a forum about pretty plants in pots (Which I would then straight away want to have Adenium section, and flowering Aloes and Passion Flower cultivation. And maybe a geranium section.)

In the analogy of koi vs gold fish. Water is water and the technice used to maintain the water is excactly the same. But is is different species, so the recomendation about speciies would be different. See my point:

4: I am very interested in Bonsai techniques and care. However, I know for sure that the comunity would not consider my plant or even my goal as bonsai. So, I try to respect that.

If you agree on calling it a bonsai, I have no problem calling it a bonsai.

I am not on the forum to make people annoyed. see my point:

5: Attitude cannot be written. There are a whole thread about trying to interpretate poster as want to make good, not bad. I am trying my hardest not to be intepretated as bad attitude. Clearly I dont succeed and must do better.

I dont reject anything, see my point:

6: I have not rejected one single advise. I am very happy about all feedback. My feedback has been prurelly to describe how and why I did things and my intention with them. People would have done different and that is fine. I am sure I would have done different 10 years from now.

and point:

7: I have the biggest respect of your knowledge and experience and everybody elses. (7000 hours, i didnt know that, Wow!)

But most of all I just want:

8: I am sorry this thread has extended to topics far from the intention and that we cannot get back on topic. If anyone dont want to post, there is really now pressure. I am happy for every feedback given despite the percieved bad attitude.

So here they come again:

1: how would you do if the tree was yours?
2: all in here agree that the trees trunk needs to be thicker. How would you approach this goal?
3: there has been a picture of what I think the tree will target. How would you approach such goal?
4: will the mugo backbud from where the needles are removed or not?

Both of us agree that the other discussion dont lead anywhere. And some people have stated that they dont want to participate in the discussion. I am totally fine with that. If you want to participate in answering the questions I am happy. If you want to continue the discussion about percieved attitude, or about me as a person, yes go ahead. But dont be offended if I reply. It is a waste of time for both you and me, but really if you say things about me as a person or my intentions that is not correct I am forced to reply.

BR
Magnus

Tropfrog wrote:

But really. I dont understand the controversy here. There are several discussions in this thread that really would have the same answer no matter the goal.

You would get the same answers if you grow apple trees to make apple cider, and the apple tree has a fungus.
You would get the same answers if your chrysanthemum has dried out after not watering it for a week or two.
You would get the same answers if you keep your christmas tree indoors and the needles fall out.

You don't go to a rugby forum to ask soccer questions, while both are played on a field, have two teams and have a ball.
It's a different ball game.

Personally, I think there's a big difference in people buying an Ikea bonsai, and you, working on a Pinus Mugo. You are, imho, not one of the people who are NOT bonsai beginners. You could have gotten decent answers.

I am very interested in Bonsai techniques and care. However, I know for sure that the comunity would not consider my plant or even my goal as bonsai.

So, you're doing miniaturized trees in shallow pots or trays that look like real trees in nature?
It does not matter that your plants are not bonsai. That's not what this forum is about. I do not consider most of my trees bonsai.
It's not about the goal, it's about the journey.

But I'm out. This discussion has gotten too silly.

Auk wrote:

You would get the same answers if you grow apple trees to make apple cider, and the apple tree has a fungus.
You would get the same answers if your chrysanthemum has dried out after not watering it for a week or two.
You would get the same answers if you keep your christmas tree indoors and the needles fall out..

I am not sure that I think that that is good examples (but that is my own thoughts and by no mean any critisism or bad attitude to you as a person or your knowledge). I dont ask about apple trees, crysanthemums or christmas trees. I ask about a tree in a pot. That is of a fairly common common species to do bonsai with. The Variant is not that common, but still used for bonsai. I intend to keep the tree in a pot for the rest of the trees life and I intend to learn more about bonsai care and techiches meanwhile. 3 years of experience is not much in the big picture. That is why I am here to learn. And I have still not given up, despite that many people would

Auk wrote:

You don't go to a rugby forum to ask soccer questions, while both are played on a field, have two teams and have a ball.
It's a different ball game.

I agree totally on that. But I dont see this beeing a good comparison. (but that is my own thoughts and by no mean any critisism or bad attitude towards you as a person or your knowledge)

Auk wrote:

Personally, I think there's a big difference in people buying an Ikea bonsai, and you, working on a Pinus Mugo. You are, imho, not one of the people who are NOT bonsai beginners. You could have gotten decent answers.

I do believe that I got a few more than decent answers in the start of this thread. In fact some of them were really good.

I am very interested in Bonsai techniques and care. However, I know for sure that the comunity would not consider my plant or even my goal as bonsai.

Auk wrote:

So, you're doing miniaturized trees in shallow pots or trays that look like real trees in nature?
It does not matter that your plants are not bonsai. That's not what this forum is about. I do not consider most of my trees bonsai.
It's not about the goal, it's about the journey.

But I'm out. This discussion has gotten too silly.

This is at least 5 thumbs up! Very well written and I agree to more than 100% (if possible:))

I am in the very beginning of a hopefully very long journey. I have spent 100s of hours resarching myself. Now I am seeking help from and discussion with experienced people whoms knowledge and experience I respect deeply. I dont really expect respect back, but just a small glimpse of it would be very nice. And that I just felt from you of all Auk . Thanks a lot for that! At least I have come pass the stage of beginners with dying mallsays, yea . It makes me grow as a person.

I dont think you have responded to any of the initial questions. Is it too much to ask if you did that and helped me getting this thread in the right direction?

And yea.....There are no shallow pots yet. I dont dare to risk my collection just yet and most of it still needs to grow before that. Minor detail thou.

BR
Magnus

The shohin size was really never my intention in the first place. However when thinking about it, it really could be an option. Thanks everyone that has suggested that.

However, according to this resource it is no longer an option:

www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATMugo%20Pines%20Indepth.htm

"However, unlike Japanese Black Pines, Mugo pines backbud from where old needles remain on a branch not where they have been removed (plucked). So, whereas Japanese Black Pines are needle plucked to prompt back budding, the older needles of a mugo are kept in areas where backbudding is required."

I read that first time two years ago. Thinking that I messed it up.

Now when reading back in this thread there are suggestions about shohin size, which would demand backbudding where old needles have been removed.

I really like the idea, but before even giving it a Second thought. I just need to know:

Will mugos backbudd where old needles have been removed or not?

Br
Magnus

Yes they will, at least mine do, and i know of a few others that have trees that do it too.
What works for my trees: first make sure your tree is healthy and vigorous. Second: decandle the entire tree completely in one session in spring.Mine backbud on older wood after i do that. But: i don't have any expensive trees, i can experiment all i want... so ... proceed at your own risk...