Mimo wrote: Hi Magnus, could you perhaps draw a virtual as to where are you heading with this?
Thank you.

I am not sure yet sure where this is heading. It is the tree that is heading somewhere, but I am not totally sure where, I am just a follower.

Besides, I dont know how to draw a "virtual".

For sure the thick branch in the back and one of the two on the right needs to go, sooner or later. I am just a coward, not doing it all at once.

Then later on I have to decide between two things. Either I shorten the other branches or I grow it for a few (many) years to get the trunk bigger. As it is now it does not have the proportions that I like. Hence the drastic top cut.

BR
Magnus

According to my limited skills in computer drawing. I have attached a picture on somewhat where I think this will take me. Five patches of ramification. Four of them is visible in the picture and the fifth one should grow backwards according to the arrow. That branch really looks like going to the right in the picture, but are really growing to the back and should replace the thick one lower down.

Thank you.
If you didi it like the drawing on the pic - the crown would be way too huge for such a thin trunk.
It would never look natural, rather funny.
Cutting the top on such a plant would be the last thing I would do.
For shohin size I would rather let it grow freely, thickening the trunk and while waiting for it to thicken, I would deal with the rest of the branches, getting the foliage closer to the trunk.
There are a lot of examples all over the web on how to do it, try and look it up (try shohin pine or something like that)
Hope it helps.
Good luck.

Tropfrog wrote: Thanks for your kind input. Then we borth agree that it is no point of you posting again.I think it is a big progress when you and me agree

Or, you could start by trying to reduce your aggressive tone towards me and some others on this forum. That would help a lot as well. I do not why you have taken such a disliking to some of the people on this forum but it is getting old.

For example:

www.phutu.com/black-pine-creation/

This is what I do in my garden too these years with the 3 Sylvestris pines:

bonsaitonight.com/2018/06/01/early-stage...d-grown-black-pines/

lot of good info

As for your tree..

I think you may have been taken in by the yellow winter foliage, which is pretty. It is however a variety that is very slow growing. With that, you have a very long road ahead; The needles are just too large to make this a realistic bonsai with the size of the trunk in my view. So you should look into one or two sacrifice branches to add some girth.

You repotted last year. If you did this well, there is no need to repot again next year. For pines, an interval of several year (5+) is perfectly fine.

As for thinning out.. I would keep the SMALLEST branch, rather than the largest. The tree is too tall. So go for the future, instead for image now. As said, you will need a few years of groth. As such, ensur eyou do not have opposing branches in the tree, but leave the excess branches. Trimming it out now will reduce your growth. In this case the backbranch that you reduced might be the branch you need. The main trunk you have choosen now is oozing sap, it looks like. So some form of damage is present. And I see lumps on it which, if they are in the trunk, will only grow more visible over time.

The virtual you have drawn is overly ambitious looking at the size of the tree: If you have not done so yet, I would recommend going to a few good qualitybonsai shows to het an idea of the size of bonsai. www.growingbonsai.net/size-matters/

leatherback wrote:

Tropfrog wrote: Thanks for your kind input. Then we borth agree that it is no point of you posting again.I think it is a big progress when you and me agree

Or, you could start by trying to reduce your aggressive tone towards me and some others on this forum. That would help a lot as well. I do not why you have taken such a disliking to some of the people on this forum but it is getting old.

Note to my self. Allways use quote function. This post was not ment to you....and it wasent ment to to be aggressive. I started this conversation clearly staring that I dont want that negative vibes in this thread. If so, I would ask politelly to not post. So this was my intention, to be polite. And not ment to you, I am truly sorry that i missed on both of Them. I will try to be better going forward.

Br
Magnus

Mimo wrote: Thank you.
If you didi it like the drawing on the pic - the crown would be way too huge for such a thin trunk.
It would never look natural, rather funny.
Cutting the top on such a plant would be the last thing I would do.
For shohin size I would rather let it grow freely, thickening the trunk and while waiting for it to thicken, I would deal with the rest of the branches, getting the foliage closer to the trunk.
There are a lot of examples all over the web on how to do it, try and look it up (try shohin pine or something like that)
Hope it helps.
Good luck.

Thanks for your input Mimo. As stated this is my first tree that has been with me for three years. Obviously I know more now than I did when started. But I am still learning.

For sure I have been looking at pictures online, 1000s of Them. It really dont give me any skills, just envy .

The drawing I made was from my option one which means thicken the trunk for many years. For option two the picture would be different. However Hard to draw as it Will need completely new set of branches.

I spent some time last summer doing measurements on natural trees and bonsai. There is a Believe that bonsai proportions is natural. My investigations show the opposite. That most bonsai have far too thick trunk compared to the height.

So, I am not targeting bonsai, I am targeting a miniature of a natural tree. Yes, the trunk needs to be thicker. But not to the extent one might think.

Br
Magnus

Tropfrog wrote: I spent some time last summer doing measurements on natural trees and bonsai. There is a Believe that bonsai proportions is natural. My investigations show the opposite. That most bonsai have far too thick trunk compared to the height.

I think you misunderstand the idea behind the sizes.
www.growingbonsai.net/how-big-should-my-bonsai-be/

leatherback wrote: As for your tree..

I think you may have been taken in by the yellow winter foliage, which is pretty. It is however a variety that is very slow growing. With that, you have a very long road ahead;/

I am very happy you took your time, despite my earlier misstake. That shows evidence of a great man behind the keyboard. very appreciated.

Yes, you are totally right. I know a lot more now than I knew 3 years ago. But on the other hand I am still learning, so why dont do it on this tree? I am in no hurry.

leatherback wrote: The needles are just too large to make this a realistic bonsai with the size of the trunk in my view. So you should look into one or two sacrifice branches to add some girth.

Well, The needles grown this summer is much smaller than the two and three years old. I would guess that there are more to gain going forward. Isnt it?

leatherback wrote: You repotted last year. If you did this well, there is no need to repot again next year. For pines, an interval of several year (5+) is perfectly fine.

Actually it was repotted summer 2017, so that would be 4 years when I attempt to do it again after one year of growth (spring 2021). The resources I have investigated recomends to repot young pines every 2-3 years. But off cource, I will not do it because of a time frame. I will do it if I see a need of it. There are a big portion of organic soil in the container and such soil deteriorates quicker than non organic.

leatherback wrote: As for thinning out.. I would keep the SMALLEST branch, rather than the largest. The tree is too tall. So go for the future, instead for image now. As said, you will need a few years of groth. As such, ensur eyou do not have opposing branches in the tree, but leave the excess branches. Trimming it out now will reduce your growth. In this case the backbranch that you reduced might be the branch you need. The main trunk you have choosen now is oozing sap, it looks like. So some form of damage is present. And I see lumps on it which, if they are in the trunk, will only grow more visible over time.

I agree totally on keeping the smallest branches. The back branch is too thick for the tree, hence why I shopped it. It wasnt shopped totally. Because I dont want to regret it. Maybe it is a future sacrifice branch? Less likelly but still possible I need it for the final design. I am well aware of the basics about how a tree is growing. This is not the first tree I have, just the first one that I intend to keep small in a pot. The sap is from 2017 prunning in the middle of the summer. It is totally dried in. I know that wasent such a good idea, but you know eager beginner . If you have any suggestion how to deal with it, I am happy to hear.

I am aware of the lumps on the trunk. But really there are not much to do about that other than tossing the tree on the compost pile. I know that might be an option for many of you, but it aint for me. I still have my first koi swimming in the pond. It is the ugliest of them and would never go to a show. But it was my first koi and I love her anyway. Same with my whife, despite she doeas not look as when I met her, I still love her:). I will not give up on my first miniature tree until I have to.

leatherback wrote: The virtual you have drawn is overly ambitious looking at the size of the tree: If you have not done so yet, I would recommend going to a few good qualitybonsai shows to het an idea of the size of bonsai. www.growingbonsai.net/size-matters/

Well, I am not sure what your standard of agood bonsai show is and I have no idea at all how to evaluate the shows I have been to. But I can assure you that I have been to two of them. Plus a few exibitions. And I am attending meeting with my local bonsai club when I have possibilities. For sure, I never get as much criticism on my trees from them as here. Maybe they are a lot more into keeping new members and grow the hobby than Bonsai empire. I really appreciate the feedback I get from here.

BR
Magnus